Excellence Foresight with Nancy Nouaimeh

Journey of Understanding: A conversation on PMO structure and strategy with Dr. Robert Joslin

• Nancy Nouaimeh • Season 3 • Episode 8

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Dr. Robert Joslin, founder of the Association of International Project Management Officers (AIPMO), joins us for a profound exploration of how Project Management Offices can evolve from administrative functions into strategic drivers of organizational excellence.

From his early days working in his father's electronics workshop to developing frameworks that bridge academic research with practical implementation, Dr. Robert shares how frustration with persistently high project failure rates inspired his mission to transform how PMOs operate. His approach, guided by the motto "ob intus fundamentus" (rebuilding from the foundations), emphasizes using first principles and systems thinking to create PMO frameworks that truly deliver value.

The conversation challenges conventional wisdom about PMO maturity, revealing that impact, not just process maturity, should be the true measure of success. "PMOs don't just manage, they shape outcomes," Dr. Robert explains, outlining how the most effective PMOs adapt dynamically, influence strategic decisions, and focus on stakeholder perception rather than mere activity metrics.

Looking toward the future, Dr. Robert offers a sobering analysis of how artificial intelligence will transform project management, potentially automating 60-70% of current PMO functions. His advice for PMO leaders who want to stay relevant? Develop high emotional intelligence, master data interpretation, and position yourself ahead of organizational change curves. The most successful PMO leaders will "think like strategists, act like consultants, and deliver like operators."

Whether you're leading a PMO, working within project management, or interested in how specialized functions can drive organizational excellence, this episode offers valuable insights into creating impact through thoughtful structure and strategy. Connect with Dr. Robert on LinkedIn or through AIPMO to continue the conversation on PMO excellence.

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Nancy Nouaimeh:

Hello and welcome to the Excellence Foresight Podcast, the podcast where we explore the mindset, models and strategies that fuel sustainable excellence in organizations. I'm your host, Nancy Nouaimeh, and today we're diving into a unique area which we are talking about for the first time in our Excellence Foresight Podcast, which is project management offices. With this episode on creating Impact, a conversation on PMO structure and strategy. I'm thrilled to have with me here today Dr Robert Jocelyn, founder of Association of International Project Management Officers, AIPMO. Dr Robert is a researcher and a consultant who's on a mission to bridge the gap between academic theory and real-world project management. Dr Robert and I first crossed paths in a unique setup on NEOM, the mega project in Saudi Arabia. Dr Robert, welcome, I'm so pleased to have you here today.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Thank you for inviting me to your podcast, Nancy.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

Thank you. It's really a pleasure to have you. So let's start with the spark. My first question what inspired you to create AI PMO?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So I guess you could actually describe it as frustration. Having worked in projects since I was very young in fact, my father had his electronic workshop and I worked at the age of seven on all the instruments. We built electronic counters and I used all the different machines I knew what it meant about actually working on projects and delivering on time, and the difference between when I was a child and now is then, if you get something wrong, it's not like getting things fixed with a FedEx and delivering it. It took far longer to actually deliver equipment, and so throughout the whole of my life until now, I've always worked on projects, and worked on projects with people that have been absolutely amazing. We get it right first time.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Being an engineer, we like building things, and the worst thing is when things go wrong. And I mentioned the word frustration, and this is because the failure rates on projects are so high or persistent that I wanted to actually find a way in which we can actually drive excellence, increase project success, and really this is a role that PMO takes or should be taking in increasing project success results. That's really the reason why I actually decided to set up AI PMO to increase project success through PMOs.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I think this is a great story and I'm pleased to see that you mentioned drive, excellence and PMOs, and I think any part of the organization needs to focus on excellence to drive better results. So if I want to go back a little bit to the research and in one sentence, I ask you to describe the gap that you are trying to close between research and the corporate world. So we have a lot of theory out there and I think AIPMO is based on a lot of research. So how would you describe that gap? What are you trying to achieve through AIPMO?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Before I did my PhD, I actually had, near the time I was thinking about it, more questions than answers. I actually felt companies were doing things that were counterproductive, and so if you asked me this question before, I would struggle, probably, to answer it. And engineering, and actually having done my PhD, what I'd like to try to do is close the gap between knowing what to do based on the knowledge that exists in research, which there's literally thousands of papers. It's a very rigorous approach of doing it putting these things together so they actually mean something, and actually then making sure that what is actually taught is used in the project world. So, taking the wealth of knowledge and actually structuring in such a way that you can actually apply it and, yeah, then you see the results that's a unique, unique perspective.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I think it's good to have this bridge between the theory and the practice and make sure that organizations have what they need to make to implement the knowledge that is out there. So what would you say is the unique thing that differentiates AI PMO from other organizations that focus on project management and project management offices?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Yeah, I think if you actually want to compare things, you need direct experience. So in fact I'm probably one of the few people in the world that have actually worked for the different or volunteered for the different project management organizations. So my first one I joined the CCTA, the Central Computer and Telecommunications Agency, in 1984 after I did my degree in electronics and engineering and this is where we were working on standards and benchmarking and in fact we worked on the predecessor for prince 2, which was prompt 2. I volunteered for pmi for their portfolio standard. In fact I worked with a colleague of mine. We developed the portfolio life cycle, the first one, which is an addition four. And then I've also my phds on methodologies and I've designed all the frameworks and methodologies for aipmo, and part of my phd was also looking at other types of frameworks, for example the, and I've designed all the frameworks and methodologies for AI PMO and part of my PhD was also looking at other types of frameworks, for example the competence baseline. So you see actually how organizations do things, what is the strengths and the weaknesses. And I think the difference is that the world we actually work in is very complex, extremely complex, and therefore we've taken a philosophy.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

In AI PMO we have this motto ob intus fundamentus. It means Latin for rebuilding from the foundations. So when you're looking at a problem, we need to actually break it from first principles. Hence we have written two books on principles. We use frameworks and then, using a systems engineering approach, how things fit together? Just like a building, you always design the framework of the building. You then put the services inside, and it's the same thing as well with the world that we live in.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

In the project program portfolio management within PMOs, operational excellence is how does everything fit together? You've got to define the pieces, look at the rules, work by principles and then fit it together. So this is actually what we do. That's what makes us different is that we actually design for the big picture, but every piece and all the framework building rules we have defined and used help us to actually create not seamless, but almost seamless between the different structures. So that's what makes us different is that we look at the big picture, frameworks and principles and design principles in how we build our standards and our documentation.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

Well, that's very interesting. And if we look at this the world of frameworks where you work in, how would you describe the evolution of PMOs across the past decade? Because there was a lot of frameworks, a lot of changes and I know now there's a recent also guideline that's out on PMOs. So how would you describe in one word the evolution of PMOs?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Understanding how to understand things when I think back. I actually worked in a PMOO I think it was in the 1980s then in the in the defense industry. I've worked in telecommunications. We had the most amazing PMO was actually for the Swiss Stock Exchange one of the first electronic exchanges in the world very high quality PMO. And then with the advent of all the computers and then, um you know, different people not so much on the guidance for us, for myself personally, is that, especially in the last three years, that we understand far more now through the research we've actually done, through the phd programs etc. Than we did just five years ago. So the evolution is understanding.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

That's a very interesting word and if I look at, for example, when I'm doing my PhD now, and if you look at the new knowledge, we're trying to generate new knowledge to understand more about how things work. When we come from a corporate background, we come from the practice. We want to solve other problems and come up with solutions for problems. So what is the misconception that companies still have about academic research now, which is maybe is hindering that, creating that bridge between the practice and academia?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Well, unfortunately, I was in this category as well when I was younger, and that is it's not practical. Research is not practical. I think I was younger, and that is it's not practical. Research is not practical. I think I know everything, and that's the problem is that when you start to get more experienced, you realize there's a lot more. The more you know, the more you don't know.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

The problem is is there's people that what they don't know does not exist and therefore the academic side it's some sort of mystical box, and this is what I've heard described by some people that describe it about research, but this is not the case. It actually is practical, but you need to know how to apply it. Like with everything is that you look at the research that has been done, whether it's on stakeholder management or it's on scheduling, for example. There's lots of different approaches. You need to really understand these approaches and see what's applicable for any given application. It also gives a confirmation of what you're doing or what you're trying to do, whether it actually makes sense or not. So it's taking the wealth of knowledge, seeing what actually makes sense and applying it to your environment, and it should give a confirmation that what you're actually doing is the right way of doing something give a confirmation that what you're actually doing is the right way of doing something.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So what is the real gap? Because sometimes we see, when we try to apply pure knowledge into the business world and the corporate world, we see that sometimes it's not really applied in the right way. It could be just a translation, which is the problem, maybe translation of the meanings, translation of what that knowledge is and what needs to be done. Or is it something else? Because we still see that problem between I mean that bridge is lacking between the academia and and the real world, the real, the real application. So what could we do for that?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

um, it takes time. You've got to learn to walk before you run. Um, I think that's an important motto. So when we look at the old days, you have to learn all the procedures, all the processes. In fact, we have the Swiss watch industry. Here's a watch. I have a Victorian ox watch. It's actually just across from where I live.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

It's a beautiful one.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

On the mountain, so in fact, I live on the canton of the Swiss army knife. The problem is that people don't want to learn. In fact, we teach the majority of the Swiss Army knife that the problem is is that people don't want to learn. In fact, we teach the majority of the top four consulting companies, plus other ones, and what I've noticed with the consultants is that they don't want to know the theory, they just want to know how to go and do it. The problem is it's the series of steps. Anybody can go and do that. The more experienced guys actually want to have the understanding of why things happen and therefore they can actually then see a situation and what to apply and what not to. I think this, this thing about getting a result today, um it it takes away, uh, from people's willingness to spend time to understand things. In fact, I have an expression is that and I feel very frustrated now is that I say I don't have the time to think.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

you have to think, you have to learn and seeing what the different options are, and then you can actually apply a solution based on good judgment I totally agree with you and I'm going back to like maybe in november, when I started my phd, I felt overwhelmed with all the things, the new things, things that we need to learn, I think, to be able to move forward a new way of thinking, thinking about new things and having that inquisitive, I think, mind for new knowledge, somehow, and finding out new topics to work on. So I totally agree on what you're saying.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Well, you raise an interesting thing about the inquisitive mind. So when you actually teach somebody or in a class, the people that sit at the front do much better than the people at the back. The people with cameras on the courses with the camera on, does much better than the people that don't have the cameras on, the people that ask the questions. In fact, this is Voltaire. He's a philosopher a couple of hundred years ago Judge a man by his questions than by his answers. A couple of hundred years ago, judge a man by his questions than by his answers.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

I know I have a few people over the years that ask amazing questions. I mean ones that I know it's a question myself, but there's only a very few handful in one hand out of teaching hundreds of people, and I think these are the people that think and contemplate because they ask the questions, and I say the same to my children, I say the same to the people in the company. The people I'm involved with always ask questions, because then I know that you're thinking about things and you want to get an answer to this, and that's the very good basis of starting on your path of understanding.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So let me ask you this question what's the most surprising insight you've uncovered through your research? By having this inquisitive mind, what's the most surprising insight? Yeah, that was my Eureka moment.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

I think what surprised me about the research on the PMO side is that and this is perhaps a bit of a disappointment is the researchers only look at what exists today. Invariably they look at what happens within the associations, the project management associations, but there's little to nothing about future undiscovered, for example, pmo models. It's more current looking and past than future, and in fact this reflects into the standards. I remember when I was working or volunteering for an American project management organization, they spoke about lagging standards rather than leading standards, and I actually didn't know what the term meant. Lagging is more looking from the past and leading is looking for the future. And then I defined the terms myself and I used that, and in fact everything we do is to look for the future, and I have this expression that if you have an industry that's in a mess and you standardize the mess, you keep it in a mess.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

What we want to do is look at innovation as part of an association, seeing what the best organizations do, and you can only do that through big distributions and surveys of 300 people or 300 companies. We can see what the top ones are doing. We then put those pieces into the framework and test it in case studies, courses, etc. And that's what we write about and that's why it takes us four, five, six years to actually look at the research and building into the books. But because it's structured properly, there's very little that needs to change. You don't need a revolution, you just more need an evolution because it's well thought out in the first place. So that's my biggest surprise is the majority of research that's done is actually understanding about the current rather than actually looking into the future, especially models and designs and things like that.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I think you've already touched or gave us part of the answer to my question. So how do you ensure AI PMOs frameworks are grounded but also forward-looking? What are you working now currently for that forward-looking aspect of research?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Okay. So the forward-looking part if you're looking at the frameworks themselves, they don't necessarily look forward, but they actually have all the pieces you actually need. When you're looking at the models, a model reflects as a reflection of something that exists. The two go together. So in fact, the frameworks we develop are hybrids, the hybrids between frameworks and models. That gives you a basis of understanding. The forward-looking is how you interpret those frameworks and how you see different perspectives to a particular problem. So you probably noticed that when you have people around the table, they're discussing a problem. Often they're discussing cross purposes to each other.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

The person that holds the pen controls the meeting and I remember when I was 20 years old there was this guy that could just draw something up like this and suddenly it made sense to people. He was drawing a framework and that always impressed me, how he brought the meeting into order for people with having a common understanding and then from that point you can build upon it. So the forward-looking part of the frameworks is actually having them, that they have rules. We use this concept called missy, usually exclusive, collectively, exhaustive. You know we have nested frameworks. We have a number of other techniques. Now we build it so that people understand and then we can then start to move forward. So it's more having it and then using it as a basis to understand the future, and we've got various games that we play or we've got various frameworks like strategy under uncertainty frameworks are the ones that help us go into the future as well that's very interesting and today is about the PMO and I want to touch a little bit on this, specifically on the PMO.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

And I want to touch a little bit on this, specifically on the PMO, the project management offices, and in the work you're doing, I think we talk a lot and we've had a lot of discussions together about the value from, I mean, the organization are getting from the PMO and what the PMO can still give in different contexts and under different, I think, governance. So, in your opinion, what role should a PMO play in an organization excellence journey? I'm talking about excellence being here from an excellence background, because everything that any unit in the organization is doing should lead towards better performance. It should be able to help the organization achieve strategic objectives. So how can you describe the PMO in this context? Is it really leading or helping organizations to achieve excellence?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

To lead an organization to be excellent, you need to be excellent yourself, and I remember when I worked for this group for an organization, we just called ourselves a center of excellence. It just changed the name. It doesn't mean you're excellent, so you really do need to benchmark yourself in being excellent. That's one thing. The second thing about PMOs is people talk about just PMO project management office. We know that teamwork is important. Nobody challenges that and so for PMOs to drive excellence, you have to drive it as a team, a team of PMOs, and each PMO plays a different role. And the thing is the role is actually shown through the services they go and build, so you can actually look at the roles by its services.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So the challenges for the PMOs they need to be very careful when they're looking at driving excellence. And this is actually maybe slightly another topic is that PMOs are all set up to do compliance and assurance, but now they shift towards more operational focus. So, yes, okay, the the doing of the work and the checking of the work. There's an issue there. But if you're looking at excellence in both areas, as long as they can manage this potential conflict, they can look at driving it from different perspectives of excellence. So both the the like for example, the Deming cycle, the Plan Do Check Act, looking at excellence in the sense of methodologies, in coaching, for example, in mentoring and in fact the most successful PMOs have people in with at least seven years experience in program management, the more senior people in there. So it's not the junior people in PMOs, it's more the senior people and they're the ones that know what excellence is. They breathe it, smell it, lived it and they can also then, through the role of the PMO, help to percolate it through the organization.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So what I understand from you is that having mature or people who are seasoned and PMO officers who have like more than seven years of experience, would help the PMO mature. So what does it really take for the PMO to mature? What are the things that they need to focus on or build, the capabilities that they need to build to get into a certain level of maturity?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Yeah, well in addition to people. To people. Yeah, so PMOs don't actually mature, they actually evolve and adapt and, in fact, um it's not really a word that's used, uh, in the pmos, and you'll see this in the research papers. Um with with projects is about repeatability, pmos about adaptability. So, yes, there is an element of maturity in the sense of being really good at what they go and do, and so the question you asked was about actually can you repeat the question, if that's OK?

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I'm asking is it enough for them to have seasoned PMOs to be able to get to a certain level of effectiveness, maturity? If not, what are the other things that they need to get? That are the capabilities that they need to build to be able to evolve. And I agree with you, they need to evolve, definitely, and it's not just about maturity, but what are the things, the prerequisite, that they need to get there?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

okay, the prerequisites, so things like having, um, the authority, so like the mandate, so in that way that, um, they're not just doing something in their spare time, having the capability, in the sense of the governance that's around, that allows them to actually execute something, knowing what the role is or the services they're providing, because PMOs without any services actually aren't doing anything. Each PMO, as I say, plays a particular role or particular function in the organisation how they actually work together as a team. Looking at PMOs, all about transparency.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Departments don't like transparency, so political skills, for example, high emotional intelligence that's one of the differences of somebody very good in PMO versus project management. Project managers get the job done in the PMO. You need to get on with people and understand what is happening. Those are some examples of the capabilities that they would need to have to operate and have a long life in the organization, but not, they say, mature, but always making sure they're optimally tuned, if that's right or structured. Because organizations change, pmos need to change as well as a reflection, so they can achieve their maximum potential in that organization.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

They need to adjust to the needs of the organization and evolve with the needs of the organization Exactly. And if I look back to the excellence models, I think excellence models also focus on leadership results, continuous improvement. You mentioned the PDCA cycle, so we see, naturally, the PMOs fitting in this picture, but still they don't necessarily provide that value. And I like your examples about the center of excellence we give them this name, but they're not necessarily operating as such. So I think there's still a lot of work that the PMOs need to do, I think, to evolve to that level of, I would say, maybe, maturity. Still, I know you mentioned that they don't mature. They evolve, but they need to have a certain level of effectiveness and maturity to be able to provide value. So, if we look a little bit at the future of PMOs and the impact they have so we often speak about PMOs having impact In your view, what defines a high impact PMO now, in 2025 and in the future? What would that high impact PMO look like?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So this is a very interesting question about maturity and impact. So these are the sort of two terms. Another term for impact is value. You can sort of translate it. English is a very loose language and that's why definitions are very important.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So, if you're looking, there was an understanding that higher the maturity equals higher impact. But that's not necessarily the case and you may not want that. So, for example, with a PMO, is that if there's one that's set up to address a crisis, it may not be mature in the sense of all the documentation, but it's got to sort the problem out, so that has a high impact when it solves it. Or you may have actually a low impact and low maturity. So a new PMO, for example, that's a legitimate quadrant to go and be in. Or it could be a PMO as low maturity and low impact because it's poorly designed. That's not a legitimate quadrant to be in, in that example. Or you may have high maturity, low impact. That's typically of a compliance PMO that really does compliance and assurance but does nothing else, and for the majority they should be in high impact, high maturity. For the majority they should be in high impact, high maturity. So what do we mean by impact. One of the challenges you have wherever we work in is categorization. So this is structuring information, and so you'll have seen the different types of categories of PMOs from different groups.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

The simplest way of actually looking at PMOs is actually looking at delivery and non-delivery PMOs.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So a delivery PMO is actually one that's involved with projects, and I mentioned there's like a bit of a conflict of interest between the assurance and compliance and delivery. But that's what they do, or some of them do today. There's also the ones that don't deliver, so these are the centre of excellencies, or the ones that do compliance and assurance, they set the standards, et cetera, and they feed them into the project teams. So when you're looking at impact the ones that are involved or responsible for projects you can actually look at the success criteria of the projects. Take a sample so really, how successful are they in the projects meeting their success criteria, the measures of success? But some of those PMOs will also be doing aspects that don't deliver into projects but do non-delivery. This is where you actually look at the service levels and the agreements within that. In that way, you can actually measure a combination of both to determine the actual impact they're making. It's actually a separate measure to what is looked at just for maturity alone.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

That's very interesting, I think, approach and if we look at the PMOs role now, like five years from now, where do you see the biggest shift in their roles? You mentioned the structured delivery non-delivery PMOs. Would you think we'll still have more delivery non-delivery PMOs? Would this differ based on geography, based on the region where the PMOs are, or the industry?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

If I elevated higher than that, I would say we talked about adapting. So the ability to anticipate change adapt either dynamically, the influence, strategic decisions or decisions that are lower down In PMOs on the impact side. They don't just manage, they shape outcomes, and I think that's it Wherever the PMOs are placed. They don't just manage, they shape outcomes and I think that's it Wherever the PMOs are placed. They need to adapt. They impact decisions, strategic or operational decisions and they shape outcomes. I think that's what you see in the future and I didn't talk about whether the delivery non-delivery, but that should be common across all of them.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So there's no real patterns. I think right, they need to adapt to what is the need, what they need to be doing in the future to remain relevant. So, Robert, if I ask you you work with a lot of young PMO leaders and BHC students what advice would you give to a young PMO leader who wants to stay relevant? And we see a lot of examples, right, People ask for support because they're not able to demonstrate that relevance anymore. So what? What is the advice you would give them?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

before I answer that question, just let me finish off on the previous one. Um, I remember one of the groups I was teaching uh, the pmo was actually managing air conditioning systems and people were saying, oh, that's not what they go and do. And I thought about it and I thought well, if you have a pmo that's high performing, they're the go-to people to get things done and manage it. As a CEO myself and I've run a couple of companies before is that I give the project or the problem to people that get it fixed? Do I care if they're called PMO or the finance department? No, I don't. I just give it to the guys that I know that can manage it. And in fact, this group managed it very well and they then passed it on to the air conditioning systems to manage to somebody else. So I think that's what's important is, if you are successful, you'll always get more work. People that are busy will always get more work. I mean making an impact. The ones that don't achieve anything, they'll just be doing operations. They will be doing really sort of paper stuff until the cut comes along and they'll be going. So this is the thing about adaptability and actually showing success. People will come to you for the project. Success breeds success. So to your question about staying relevant, this is a very interesting question about the future of PMOs and there's lots of discussions. We've had some webinars on it.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Now I was remembering back, when you look at, if you say, take the industrial revolution, when machines came along, they took out the need for muscle because of machines and power. Now, with artificial intelligence, it takes away the need for intelligence and if you get robotics, it's intelligence on the move. In fact, I remember writing a paper back or presentation back in 2012 called Walking Risks robots that you can reprogram as a workforce. One day is doing claims, another day is maybe on a manufacturing plant. So then I have actually done using ChatGPT.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

I asked it what can you do in project management and PMOs? What roles can you take over? And I did quite extensive research. In fact, the majority of the work that we do in the project world, as well as other professions, except for maybe nursing, and there was more of a sort of healthcare they were saying, actually we can do like 60 to 70% of it. Saying, actually we can do like 60 to 70 percent of it. So what I would recommend for the young professionals.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Um is to really make sure you understand about data.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

So so you need to have the high emotional intelligence you need to get on with very senior people that's important but you need to understand the data, how you bring it together, and, in fact, this was one of the things that we did when nancy talked about organization, the mega project. We worked at bringing data together, the interpretation of that, making sure that decisions are taken on time and, of course, it will be supported by AI. But it's going to take several years to get into the transition where AI really does the majority of things that we do the majority of things that we do. So make sure you're the head of the curve in actually redefining your PMO or PMOs in the organization and putting all those building blocks into place. Otherwise, what you'll find is that some other group outsourced group will actually make an offer and then you'll find that your administrative PMO no longer exists. It's been outsourced and then removed, and then the higher value-added services are actually going to be then replaced from what you're doing. Always get ahead of the curve, don't be behind it.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I like your analysis on this and I think one thing came to my mind is that a lot of departments it's kind of justified why they are there when we look at HR, when we look at purchasing or other departments, legal departments, departments the pmo needs to justify its presence because they need to adapt, they need to continuously make sure that they provide that value. What is the one thing that you would recommend the pmos to stop doing?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

maybe because it's really not helping them provide that value um, actually, just to answer that question about PMOs, I was thinking sometimes people call PMOs a function, but if you look in the operational world that you don't get rid of the finance or you don't get rid of the marketing department, that always exists, but PMOs do come and go, so is it really a function? I think that PMOs can actually change organizational structures for the future if we discover and invent it, and I think it will actually reflect into the operational side, and this is some of the things that we're actually researching into. So what is the thing that PMOs should stop doing? They should stop measuring things by, say, success by activity, focus on influence, focus on outcomes, focus on stakeholder perception and also look at what's coming your way, such as the things about artificial intelligence and all the things that come with that. Try to understand the implications and change before you have to change. That's important, and sometimes it does take a leap of courage to go and do that. So that's what I would suggest you look at.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Oh, the other one as well, is that what advice would you give to a PMO leader? Just to add to it? I was just thinking of like a tagline, adding to this. So in the future. You want to really think like the strategists of the guys in the strategy side. You want to act like consultants, so really provide very good advice and actually understand the frameworks and approach and how you solve problems. You want to deliver like an operator, I guess, and and the relevance comes from the range that you do from going from the strategist to actually delivering like an operator. So this is what I would make sure don't just think I just do this and I don't do something else. You've got to be flexible, you've got to adapt and you show success on those different levels. You will have a long-term career in that organization across all your answers.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I'm thinking. I mean the people. It's all about the people who are leading the pmo. There's a a lot, I mean you can give them frameworks, methodologies, a lot of things, but if they don't have that good analytical thinking, judgment, being able to shape the PMO to what it should be, I think we're going to always have that gap. So it goes back to the people and their capabilities and I think it stands out from all your answers and I think it's really important for the PMO leaders to focus on that, because you can give them everything, you can give them a lot of tools, but if they don't know how to adjust and adapt, I think we're going to always have this gap.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So thank you very much for your answers so far on this technical side of the PMO, the future of the PMO and what you're doing in terms of research. We can wrap up with a few quickfire questions. Our audience can get to know you a little bit better. So I would like to start with a quick one Research, teaching or consulting your favorite hat to wear? I think I know the answer, but I'll leave it to you.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Well, at first you've got to understand and then you've got to disseminate. Or you could actually say you've got to understand and then you've got to understand and then you've got to disseminate. Or you could actually say you've got to understand and then you've got to apply it and then you've got to teach it. So which one do I like to wear? I'm probably more consulting. It's like where theory gets tested and lives. If you do a good job, they're changed.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

But I do need to have the other ones. Before that I would have said research myself, but I like consulting too. I do need to have the other ones. Before that I would have said research myself, but I like consulting too. One academic concept that deserves more attention in boardrooms when you look at the boardrooms, what can we do there?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

It actually reminds me of the organization that you and I work for for a bit of time. I remember when they're looking at principal risks this principal risk actually is a term that doesn't come from construction, it comes from the asset management side and what they were sharing was like 15 risks, and I remember one of them. They were saying okay, for implementation we have high risk threshold, but when it comes to reputational risk, low. But then I thought well, wait a minute, if you fail on implementation of this mega project, what's the impact on reputation? They're actually linked and they weren't linking it.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

The problem is that the top management often just think linear. They just think of individual boxes. We've got to look at systems thinking, cause and effect. I think that's what they need to actually consider is what are the consequences? Because we do live in a complex system and there are cause and effects everywhere. And if, if the understanding is brought to them, um, and they understand the causality, I think they can make much better decisions as a consequence of it I don't think we talk enough about system thinking, we don't teach it enough.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

So I think this is one of the key things that needs to be spread more. So I totally agree with you and in terms of the legacy you would hope AI PMO will leave on the profession, what kind of legacy would you imagine?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Yeah, I mean it's AI PMO. If I wanted to be rich, I wouldn't have sort of worked with AI PMO. I mean, what I didn't say at the time is that when I was working for this big insurance company in Switzerland, things weren't going well. The CEO and CFO were under incredible pressure. It was one of the biggest in the world and they committed suicide and it was very sad because I knew both of them and it's just because the fact that the projects and programs and the advice they were giving wasn't optimal and that's part of the motivation for doing it.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Frustration I used that word before. I think it's for, really, the teams. I love working in high-performing teams. When I worked at McKinsey, I worked at Logica, for example. I've worked in other teams.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

When it works well, you have the confidence, you enjoy what you're doing because you're building. I'm an engineer, I love building things. I hate when companies fail because you have to take them apart. So I'm hoping that everything that we do, the people we motivate and I know we motivate a lot of people and they come back and give us feedback on how they apply things. They want to go and learn more. We have people that go through the different levels of courses, up to the PhD level as well is that everybody's on a journey of understanding and also a journey of impact. So I'm hoping that continues with this philosophy not money because we don't charge, we don't have a membership, but really knowledge and understanding, and people get excited about discovering new things, seeing new perspectives and helping others actually progress. Perhaps it's naive, but that's something that I've always enjoyed and I hope that continues as a legacy of AI PMO.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

I think it's noble, it's not naive at all, and maybe I'm thinking to change the title of this episode to Journey of Understanding, because I think we have to start with understanding things. So thank you very much for for your message, and if people would like to connect with you with your work and aipm's latest development, can you let them know how they can reach out to you?

Dr. Robert Joslin:

yeah, so I mean linkedin. You 'll find me on there so I will respond back to people's messages. Uh, courses, um, if you come on the course, we actually do something unique where we're so confident with the methodology and frameworks we actually do real problem solving with the people that attend, so you'll spend 40 hours or more with me and also with other competent people. I don't really have that much time for conferences. I do a few because I'm so busy in other things events that we do, or if you want to do your master's, we're going to create a new one, probably next year. If you're doing a doctorate, then if I'm your supervisor, you have the unfortunate pleasure of spending about two years with me. Typically, we spend about a month to two months full time for any student because there's over a three-year period. So connecting wise emails aipmo, linkedin-wise emails, ai.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

PMO and LinkedIn are the sort of best ways to get to me. Dr Robert, thank you so much for this fascinating conversation. I got to know a little bit more about you and, I'm sure, our audience. Your work reminds us that excellence isn't just about results. It's about the systems, leadership, the thinking and understanding that's behind that helps us sustain impact over time. And I think there's a lot of understanding, more understanding that we behind system that helps us sustain impact over time. And I think there's a lot of understanding, more understanding, that we need to do. Thank you very much and I'll give you the space if you'd like to say a word before we wrap up our session yes, I mean thank you for asking me for this.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

In fact, um, when you asked me, I was thinking about what questions are you going to ask? And I know that you you are-known internationally for operational excellence and throughout this interview, I was thinking all the things that we're actually doing is if we can embed more operational excellence into PMOs, it will make all the difference in project success. So I thank you for investing your time and the interest in the PMO side, and I think there's a very close link and correlation between the two the PMO part as well as operational excellence.

Nancy Nouaimeh:

Absolutely, and thank you very much for this comment. And yesterday we were in a meeting and we were discussing the lack of alignment sometimes and the silos we create by separating everything in the organization under different departments. A lot of things has to be across A lot of things. They have to provide alignment rather than silos in organization and I think this is where excellence, operational excellence, continuous improvement all of these things help laying a good foundation for that. Thank you very much again for sharing your insights with us and to our listeners. I would ask you what role will your PMO play in shaping the future? Think about it, its future and the future of the organization. And until next time, stay curious and tune in to our next episodes on the Excellence Podcast. Thank you.

Dr. Robert Joslin:

Thank you everybody for listening. Thank you Nancy.

People on this episode

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Nancy Nouaimeh

Host
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Dr. Robert Joslin

Guest